Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations book commentary

[electrowizard]

@big_ass

I'm taking issue with the guy being obviously unhinged and me avoiding him,

Yes, this is asoul trying to avoid me and not doing anything to incite a reaction:

@big_ass

Can someone open a JIRA ticket for the admin epok to get on this one? Do we have anyone who can write the design doc? Do rocks need documentation to access an API or do they do it intuitively? If only we had someone here who was an expert on all this stuff..

@big_ass

Stop debating pointless shit you know it's bullshit and he's just doing it to be a cunt. ■■■ should not be enabling him

@big_ass

Congrats on your responses, good luck with your personal issues.

@big_ass

TFW you got an entire undergraduate degree in math (western math) only to come on the internet and argue for 14h 3 days straight with hbotz, who learned rock math (and is no less right for it)

He's blatantly lying and gaslighting again. Who could've ever seen that coming?

[hbotz]

i think the extra layer provides:

• for people who dont have the time to think about hard problems, they can trust the physical reduction as a partial answer for existential angst, while possibly simultaneously being able to appreciate philosophers approaching the issue as metaphysical.
• i think believing in the metaphysics "too much" might lead to hasty generalizations that lead to unfounded predictions, such as "AI will never be developed that can do X". you have a strict definition of consciousness and metaphysics that carefully makes sure that such things are not ruled out in principle, but some other people may make such a mistake. the mistake doesnt follow if you suppose the physical brain is implementing the metaphysical structure.
• i think the physical view encourages development of cognitive psychology and neuroscience, which i think is very valuable and can lead to good and useful insight. the metaphysical view doesnt necessarily preclude these, but the physical view puts it in the spotlight.
• the abstraction is sort of a humility guard that prevents overconfidence. the way i think about physics is that there is real physical physics, and our metaphysical physics is an abstract model that doesnt necessarily capture physical physics. this allows room for the physics theory to be wrong. this is kind of obvious, and since physics is pretty accurate i rhetorically say "the universe is physics", but i think the distinction is still useful.

those are some reasons why i think my mindset is valuable. but if these things arent applicable to you, then i dont have major complaints with the alternative view.

also, aesthetically, i think physicalism prime is more elegant, and not an "extra layer". since i have included humans in the system, and consider human metaphysics less real than physical stuff. since human metaphysics is not robust to drugs and i cannot tell in principle if i am delusional or not, but i can still believe that in principle there is a reality. but thats mostly just a sentiment.

[electrowizard]

@big_ass

There are just some people in the thread with some compulsive behavior issues and when they did not get the endorphins from a response from me they had to start trying other methods

Ah, yes, you weren't insulting me at all. You weren't making posts at/about me. You weren't spamming big block quotes without any discussion of those quotes (which was then mimicked by jdance). You're totally innocent

[Nyte]

it is a real issue that you are suggesting that you don't respond directly to him, or to what he's posting. you do it often. you just took some flagged posts so badly you reduced yourself to attacking him personally quite a few times. i'm not sure i understand the positions you've taken many times about the way people should be treated - no matter what views they're expressing - when this is the way that you're responding to having posts flagged.

[big_ass]

Dude shut up lol

[iaafr]

i invented this simulation and the metaphysical is definitely real

[hbotz]

while i too rank asoul's contributions as "low", i like rock memes. and this thread is not tagged Serious.

i guess epok can remove things he determines to be spam as he wishes tho so i dunno

[Nyte]

just add the word ■■■■■■ and you've basically let yourself become ewiz

[hbotz]

is it really so offensive to have your posts hidden

mods censoring rock memes. truly a travesty.

[big_ass]

No, I haven't followed you around posting it hundreds of times and I'm not doing it out of deep-seated daddy issues and an overwhelming sense of self-hatred which I drown out with endless abusive internet arguments

[Nyte]

oh, because this is somehow in better character. yes, i understand now.

[electrowizard]

@hbotz

for people who dont have the time to think about hard problems, they can trust the physical reduction as a partial answer for existential angst, while possibly simultaneously being able to appreciate philosophers approaching the issue as metaphysical

Those people can just say they take no position or make no claims about consciousness and get the same effect.

@hbotz

i think believing in the metaphysics "too much" might lead to hasty generalizations that lead to unfounded predictions, such as "AI will never be developed that can do X". you have a strict definition of consciousness and metaphysics that carefully makes sure that such things are not ruled out in principle, but some other people may make such a mistake.

I don't understand how this slippery slope argument works

@hbotz

the mistake doesnt follow if you suppose the physical brain is implementing the metaphysical structure.

By definition, the physical can't do that

@hbotz

i think the physical view encourages development of cognitive psychology and neuroscience, which i think is very valuable and can lead to good and useful insight. the metaphysical view doesnt necessarily preclude these, but the physical view puts it in the spotlight.

Those are still incentivized the same amount with or without a supposition of what consciousness is. No one working in those fields is doing so or claiming to do so in order to find the physical basis of consciousness. Those fields are extremely valuable even without that.

@hbotz

the abstraction is sort of a humility guard that prevents overconfidence. the way i think about physics is that there is real physical physics, and our metaphysical physics is an abstract model that doesnt necessarily capture physical physics. this allows room for the physics theory to be wrong. this is kind of obvious, and since physics is pretty accurate i rhetorically say "the universe is physics", but i think the distinction is still useful.

I don't follow

@hbotz

also, aesthetically, i think physicalism prime is more elegant, and not an "extra layer". since i have included humans in the system, and consider human metaphysics less real than physical stuff.

It is exactly an extra layer when you say that you suppose consciousness is metaphysical but we can view it as physical

@hbotz

since human metaphysics is not robust to drugs

This claim isn't true and is a huge misunderstanding of what metaphysical existence means

@hbotz

i cannot tell in principle if i am delusional or not, but i can still believe that in principle there is a reality.

If you are delusional, then how can you tell there is a reality?

[hbotz]

also i have some aggressive skepticism about the fundamentalism of language logic, reason, etc. to cognition compared to the stuff we share in common with animals. as in, i believe a lot of human behavior in practice doesnt require higher level consciousness to understand.

but maybe you disagree with this, or are specifically interested in studying the parts where language, logic, reason etc. is fundamental, and carefully defining consciousness in that way. its certainly valuable, and probably necessary to build human-like AI.

[huber]

found it

[electrowizard]

I didn't flag the rock posts or the rock quote. Those posts weren't hidden. I flagged the three big block quotes he made before that with no comment and that no one discussed, except for jdance reposting the exact same quotes with no comments and no discussion

[big_ass]

Incredible

[electrowizard]

I don't use that word

[huber]

ty

[electrowizard]

None of those posts were flagged or hidden

[Nyte]

oh but you most certainly did