Gamers Thread

[big_ass]

Just popping in here to say I can see both sides of this argument

[big_ass]

You guys are both right; or, rather, you are both equally wrong.

[bees]

Thanks

[bees]

Nvm

[LuckyArtist]

Zains so good but also it’s just been a while since a good marth existed

[big_ass]

The melee guys dont understand enough about tf2 and their arguments are arguing from ignorance (see: ewiz’s previous posts about tf2 lol)

The tf2 guys don’t know much about melee

Either way it is an entirely pointless discussion to have. How do you compare the extent to which two games are “organic?” What quantitative scale can you use, especially when you don’t really know the history of the other game and the two aren’t really comparable?

If you want to take the good parts of this argument:

-read what LBJ said about melee and the way it had to grow the tournament and streaming scene despite extreme adversity
-understand that tf2 - in its huge community-driven map projects, community-led tournaments that reached tens or hundreds of thousands of players without anyone ever making a single cent, never any positive affirmation from Valve or even acknowledgment that the competitive scene was a good thing (like honestly I think they hated competitive gaming and thought it was stupid and toxic until dota came along) plus a decade of bad balancing decisions aimed at lowest common denomator pubbies - is a completely different flavor of “organic”

And these two things aren’t really comparable. They’re both organic in their own way.

So if you want to understand both sides and be an enlightened centrist like I am, understand the above, read the good parts in lbj and dan posts and ignore ewiz and bees posts

Thank you for reading

[old_electrowizard_acc]

Neither lbj not I argued about tf2. Just that Dan has no understanding of melee and was talking out his ass

[big_ass]

@LuckyArtist

Lol the most organic scene of them all was melee considering sakurai didn’t even want that shit to exist

@big_ass

Yeah or like TF2 where there were competitive players for 10 years only about 5 people per season made enough money back to cover costs of travelling to the LAN in the first place

@LuckyArtist

That wasn’t successful tho

@big_ass

Successful by what metric

@LuckyArtist

Can you make a living doing this yes or no

@LuckyArtist

Sure tf2 might have had the same origins, but where did it grow to? Even then, when did valve push back and say no streaming this game cuz it’s our ip and it’s supposed to be casual.

Again defend tf2 all you want, but at the end of the day despite the organic way it developed, it never reached the same heights as a game that developed just as organic, and arguably even more so

This is me helping you to read the thread

Enjoy

[bees]

Sounds like you’re creeping away from centrism

[bees]

Careful!

[big_ass]

I get where you are coming from here ewiz actually

But the entire discussion started as some dumb comparison between tf2 and melee between LBJ and Dan

[big_ass]

Hi bees can you make sure your posts are worthwhile contributions to the discussion

These posts are really bad

[old_electrowizard_acc]

Yeah, but lbj didn’t argue that tf2 didn’t have an organic growth. Just that it wasn’t successful

[big_ass]

I have no clue what LBJ was arguing but either way you’re moving the goalposts

LBJ was engaging in discussion about TF2 from a background of relative ignorance

That is all.

[old_electrowizard_acc]

Not really. He wasn’t arguing about anything that you would need an understanding of the game to know. Just that the competitive scene wasn’t successful (it wasn’t) and that valve didn’t actively impede its development (they didn’t)

[sdadasdas]

TF2 isn’t as dead as everyone thinks, it’s been hanging around 50-100k concurrent players for years now, which is pretty good.

[old_electrowizard_acc]

The competitive scene wasn’t successful though

[LuckyArtist]

Yeah idk why u guys keep talking about pleb shit ground the discussion in competitive scenes and their development wrt dev/pub interaction

[big_ass]

I mean there’s no grounds to say “the competitive scene wasn’t successful”

It lived for 10 years with massive numbers of players (more than dota ever saw I’m sure) and with people doing all sorts of stuff like making websites, apps that lobby you up into pugs and shit, leagues, tournaments

You are, as usual, speaking from ignorance

And of course it’s a statement that boils down to dumb semantics of how you define successful which I dont really want to get into with you

[old_electrowizard_acc]

It wasn’t sustainable. That’s the bare minimum for success