Just popping in here to say I can see both sides of this argument
You guys are both right; or, rather, you are both equally wrong.
Thanks
Nvm
Zains so good but also itâs just been a while since a good marth existed
The melee guys dont understand enough about tf2 and their arguments are arguing from ignorance (see: ewizâs previous posts about tf2 lol)
The tf2 guys donât know much about melee
Either way it is an entirely pointless discussion to have. How do you compare the extent to which two games are âorganic?â What quantitative scale can you use, especially when you donât really know the history of the other game and the two arenât really comparable?
If you want to take the good parts of this argument:
-read what LBJ said about melee and the way it had to grow the tournament and streaming scene despite extreme adversity
-understand that tf2 - in its huge community-driven map projects, community-led tournaments that reached tens or hundreds of thousands of players without anyone ever making a single cent, never any positive affirmation from Valve or even acknowledgment that the competitive scene was a good thing (like honestly I think they hated competitive gaming and thought it was stupid and toxic until dota came along) plus a decade of bad balancing decisions aimed at lowest common denomator pubbies - is a completely different flavor of âorganicâ
And these two things arenât really comparable. Theyâre both organic in their own way.
So if you want to understand both sides and be an enlightened centrist like I am, understand the above, read the good parts in lbj and dan posts and ignore ewiz and bees posts
Thank you for reading
Neither lbj not I argued about tf2. Just that Dan has no understanding of melee and was talking out his ass
This is me helping you to read the thread
Enjoy
Sounds like youâre creeping away from centrism
Careful!
I get where you are coming from here ewiz actually
But the entire discussion started as some dumb comparison between tf2 and melee between LBJ and Dan
Hi bees can you make sure your posts are worthwhile contributions to the discussion
These posts are really bad
Yeah, but lbj didnât argue that tf2 didnât have an organic growth. Just that it wasnât successful
I have no clue what LBJ was arguing but either way youâre moving the goalposts
LBJ was engaging in discussion about TF2 from a background of relative ignorance
That is all.
Not really. He wasnât arguing about anything that you would need an understanding of the game to know. Just that the competitive scene wasnât successful (it wasnât) and that valve didnât actively impede its development (they didnât)
TF2 isnât as dead as everyone thinks, itâs been hanging around 50-100k concurrent players for years now, which is pretty good.
The competitive scene wasnât successful though
Yeah idk why u guys keep talking about pleb shit ground the discussion in competitive scenes and their development wrt dev/pub interaction
I mean thereâs no grounds to say âthe competitive scene wasnât successfulâ
It lived for 10 years with massive numbers of players (more than dota ever saw Iâm sure) and with people doing all sorts of stuff like making websites, apps that lobby you up into pugs and shit, leagues, tournaments
You are, as usual, speaking from ignorance
And of course itâs a statement that boils down to dumb semantics of how you define successful which I dont really want to get into with you
It wasnât sustainable. Thatâs the bare minimum for success